Evo X MR vs MK7 Golf R DSG, opinions? (autocross)

"Kanaric" (Kanaric1) 07/16/2016 at 20:28 • Filed to: None

0

25

So my schedule is changing soon and i’ll be able to autocross again and i’ve been bench racing various cars. I have been gaining interest in DCT cars lately and thinking I will eventually get one. I want to jump back into the AWD sport compact game once again as well.

First off I want to do stock autocross so mods and “potential” are irrelevant. I have a 2nd car i’m setting up for track so the Evo X transmission heating issue is also irrelevant since it will be autocross and DD only. I believe the Evo has beefier brakes but I doubt the R will see much issues on autocross.

For transmission both I heard replacements can be $10k which is obscene, any comments on which box is stronger or more reliable?

Is the DSG as good a sport DCT as the Evo X’s SST? VW has been making DCTs for a while now so i’m assuming it’s good but i’ve not the opportunity to drive one in an environment like autocross. The Evo X was kind of like autocross cheat codes for me since i’m not the best at heel-toe and quickly shifting.

I hear the current Haldex is far better than the previous as well.

So i’m curious, anyone here have any opinions on it, anyone drive both cars in such a setting?

Nick Has an Exocet > Kanaric 07/16/2016 at 20:57

1

They’re very different cars. The Evo is far more hair-on-fire and emotional.

I have a ‘11 Ralliart with the same TC-SST as the EVO. If you’re planning on shifting yourself almost all the time, it’s a great gearbox. If you’re planning on putting it in ‘D’ and puttering around, then forget about it. It’s just not refined as an autobox. If you shift it yourself, it’s plenty smooth and you learn it just like a manual.

In terms of reliability, I’d give a slight edge to the Evo. Not because it’s that much better, but because support in the enthusiast community is really good. It’s easy to figure out what you need to do to make it last (cooler, Diaqueen SST fluid, and don’t try to put 450 ft-lb through it without a clutch pack upgrade).

The big difference in the two cars. The Golf R is probably a better daily and the Evo is probably a better track car. The Evo makes you feel like a hero. It doesn’t feel like a FWD car with AWD tacked on. It feels like a monster. A monster where all the money went into places where you can feel it but not see it. Matt Farah’s joke about the Evo being a $40k drivetrain with a free car on top is pretty spot on.

If you want to make big power in the future, the Evo might be a better option. Intercooler, turbo upgrade, oil cooler upgrade, exhaust, fuel system, cams, clutch packs, etc are all available and well documented in forums. There are also a lot of shops that can tune them. It’s also very popular to do E85 conversions (requires a fuel pump and high flow injectors) to make gobs more power for short money.

Nick Has an Exocet > Nick Has an Exocet 07/16/2016 at 21:01

0

I should also add: The Evo is fairly expensive to maintain. The transmission fluid is $250 per flush. It can be done in your home garage but if not, add labor. The front and rear diffs will also need fluid but it’s less expensive. If you daily it hard, expect to do a transmission flush every 30k. If you track it, maybe more. If you change the cooler, you’ll need another $250 in fluid.

Crash McGee > Kanaric 07/16/2016 at 21:03

1

From the owner of a 2015 Golf R DSG:

You’re going to get quite a bit of understeer with the Golf without upgrading the rear sway bar. You can only fit 245s on it as well, but that’s the max that the classes will allow that you’ll be in. No stock camber adjustments up front here :(

The DSG transmission is awesome with getting the next gear or previous gear. You’ll never have the “should I shift” dilemma. Going to first in spots has no drawbacks with this car. With the Evo DCT, my friend kept getting transmission overheat messages throughout the day.

The power is there in spades. Traction is great out of the corners and the brakes are very strong.

Don’t expect a world beating autocross car from the Golf because it is absolutely hosed in BS. It is very fun, but if you only want an autocross car, the Evo will probably the one to choose. If you want an absolutely perfect daily that is acceptable bordering on great at autocross, then the Golf is the one to choose (especially if you get the DCC suspension option).

The current DSG option in the Golf is, in my opinion, one of the best on the market short of a PDK. Very smart and absolutely wants to go fast. Shifts are extremely quick, launch control is a total riot, and you’ll never regret not getting the manual. Stick it in manual mode and it behaves just like one without the money shift risk. I swore up and down that I would never buy a car that didn’t have a manual clutch and gear change. No ragerts!

The current gen Golf R is a game changer. The MK6 was a joke of a hot hatch. The MK7 kicks the potential of a hatch up to literally 11 (in the quarter mile), especially when you simply throw on an APR stage 1 tune with no other mods. 330 WHP and high 11s for $700? All day every day, please. Change it to an intake and downpipe + APR stage 2 to get low 11s? Why not?! The ability to do 700 mile road trips in a day and not get out of the car exhausted? PERFECTION!

Kanaric > Nick Has an Exocet 07/16/2016 at 21:06

0

This is what I was expecting however I find most people are talking about the MK6 when everyone seems to claim the MK7 Golf R is FAR superior to the MK6. Do you still think this considering that?

Also I would be doing B Street autocross with this so I wouldn’t be allowed many (if any) upgrades. Maybe eventually but I have a project car i’m working on. This car would replace my DD plus serve me in autocross. So I won’t be pushing the car hard with significant power mods, it would be stock.

Any inteior or NVH considerings are a non-factor for me which heavily stacks things in EVO’s favor when it comes to the MK6 golf at least.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Kanaric 07/16/2016 at 21:11

1

Both cars are in B Street for SCCA Solo (also this means you would need to do some modifications to have a chance at being competitive beyond the local level) and I dont believe that either are particularly well suited to B Street competition, so at that point Id just pick the one I liked driving the best.

Now if you want to be competitive with an AWD compact(ish) car the new WRX in D Street would be the way to go. That car has no business being in a class with such a soft PAX Index, but alas, that’s SCCA Autocrosssing for ya.

Kanaric > Trunk Impaired 318 07/16/2016 at 21:27

0

Ya I heard about that WRX I am almost afraid it’s going to get a class change though lol. The last thing I want is to buy a car like that and switch to b street.

Another thing is i’m looking at DCT cars, i’ve had several right wrist and leg injuries and driving a manual in motorsport is starting to get rough

Kanaric > Crash McGee 07/16/2016 at 21:30

1

Good post.

I have heard a lot of good about the DSG which made me especially curious about the R.

“With the Evo DCT, my friend kept getting transmission overheat messages throughout the day.”

I am afraid of this due to living in Las Vegas. When I autocross here during the summer it could easily be 100 degrees even though it would be at night. Are transmission coolers an allowed upgrade in street?

Kanaric > Nick Has an Exocet 07/16/2016 at 21:46

0

Someone on another site recommended an Audi TTS, I see them around me slightly older but around the same price as a newer Golf R. How do you feel about those?

Crash McGee > Kanaric 07/16/2016 at 21:47

0

I don’t think so. I’ve done track days at Miller in 95 degree weather and autocrosses in the same with no transmission messages. Just slightly down on power compared to winter time, but that’s expected. I never got any hiccups from the car.

The last time out at the track, I did an open lapping day and finished with two 45 minute sessions with only stopping to refill the tank. Not a single hiccup or drawback experienced. Great power delivery and acceptable cornering on stock suspension with Bridgestone RE71R tires and Volk ZE40s. This is coming from someone that had a full suspension setup capped off with AST 5300 coilovers on my last car. The Golf said “Thank you, that was fun. Now let’s drive home in comfort mode.” Absolutely love this car to bits.

The stock brakes did well all things considered at autocross. No fade and great stopping power with good modulation on stock pads and fluids. With lapping at the track, they started to fade after around 6 laps in hot temps. I upgraded to Pagid RS29 pads and Castrol SRF for the last time out. Put 150 miles on the car and 3 tanks of gas, but didn’t get a single hint of fade or spongy pedal.

Edit: My only gripe is the seats. I wish they had more of a bucket feel and side bolstering. I have to move the seat back, lock the belt, and slide foward to get some stability. It could use more side grip to help with some confidence in the high speed turns.

Kanaric > Nick Has an Exocet 07/16/2016 at 21:47

0

Is the Golf R as bad when it comes to that? I would think that DCTs are created equal as far as maintanence otherwise lol.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Kanaric 07/16/2016 at 21:58

0

Golf R no question. One of my cow-orkers has one (6MT) and has it tuned.

It’s scary fast. Tuning is cheap. Power is made easily. Leaving it stock is still plenty fast.

The Evo is probably better stock. The Golf R is more easily and cheaply made better. And despite the recent debacles, I do not see VW going away anytime soon which means better support long-term.

Simply adding a stiffer rear ASB and the Golf will rotate much more and push much less. And I venture the Golf is much easier to maintain as well.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Kanaric 07/16/2016 at 22:33

0

I doubt the SCCA is going to bump it up, with the FoST is in GS and FiST in HS, they’ve clearly shown that their classing isn’t exactly as balanced as its supposed to be.

I’ve heard that the CVT in the WRX is good but I guarantee that its no DCT and at the end of the day is still a CVT.

Animoski > Kanaric 07/16/2016 at 22:38

0

Save yourself some money and why not pick up a GTI with Performance Pack? Can be easily had for over $10k discount.

It’s honestly more of an Auto-X car with less weight all around, less powertrain loss. Factory VAQ LSD, same brakes as the R.

$700 tune will put it above a stock R. You can also direct-swap slap in a R turbo and intercooler and get 386HP/402TQ (Stage 2 on R, R turbo swap on GTI = same power figures, provided matching supporting mods)

The R is pretty much only good at hard launches, 0-60 times, 1/4 times, etc. The Haldex 4Motion AWD system is front-biased in the R. If money is no matter, get the R though. New turbo kits are on the horizon, and we will start seeing potentially 600HP+ Mk7s around.

Kanaric > Animoski 07/17/2016 at 11:57

0

I would consider this but the thing is I have a Mustang GT now and I think I would miss the power if I get a GTI. I had a WRX before and I liked AWD and it was fast enough for me. I also want to try to compete in my local autocross and so if I tune the car or turbo swap I am stepping up to big money required to compete. Where in street I don’t need a big mod budget.

If I mod for power a GTI I believe I would need a 4 door and I would end up in DSP which I don’t think it can compete in. If you can change the tune on the fly like with a Subaru that would be fine but I wouldn’t be allowed any supporting mods if I do GS.

As for the cost i’m curious if DCC would be an advantage.

Kanaric > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/17/2016 at 12:03

0

“It’s scary fast. Tuning is cheap. Power is made easily. Leaving it stock is still plenty fast.”

All this is true for the Evo though as well. In fact with an evo I can get an opensource tune for $400 and not even buy anything like I did with my WRX when I had one. The thing is though i’m not going to be doing that, I want to do street tire autocross to keep expenses down and not have to compete against the best people locally in ASP or whatever a modded EVO or Golf R would be in.

“better support long-term.”

This is very true. I am afraid of Mitsubishi’s longevity even though Renault/Nissan has a stake now.

“The Evo is probably better stock. The Golf R is more easily and cheaply made better.”

The only mods i’m allowed are shocks with 2 adjustments, one sway bar, lighter wheels of same width as stock, 200 tread street tires, and alignment. So there is not much room for mods.

With the Golf R i’m almost obligated to get he higher trim as well for the 8" wheels.

Kanaric > Animoski 07/17/2016 at 13:03

0

So the more i’m reading on other sites the more it looks like the GTI would be the better pick. Thanks for the suggestion.

They compete mostly against the Focus ST and do well against it locally here. They are about even in times.

Animoski > Kanaric 07/17/2016 at 16:44

1

I’m only suggesting a GTI because I own one, and the only reason why I didn’t get an R is because of the huge price difference. Fully loaded GTI vs fully loaded R is like, $7k difference, lowest trim GTI vs lowest trim R is like $15k at times depending on deals.

Anything can be tuned and modified. That being said, for just an ECU tune - no other platform can match the gains made. 100~ HP and 130~ TQ from just a tune is something no one can really make fun of. That’s on the GTI, on the R you’re looking at less “gains” but it’ll still be worth it.

You would be surprised at what a Stage 1 GTI can do. I’ve literally dusted Camaro SSs, multiple STR8s, a tuned WRX STI will get “bussed” on by my GTI.

Literally the only reason why you would wanna get an R is because of 4WD. There are shortfalls as well such as less room in the trunk, no possible sunroof, the center cubby doesn’t open up.. And again, a $700 stage 1 just ECU tune on the GTI will put it well above and beyond what an R can do. But a stage 1 R will dust a stage 1 GTI...

The Mk7 platform is overall very good and very modular with how you can swap in parts. You can put the 2.0 GTI turbo on the 1.8 regular Golf engine for instance. You’re really just looking at difference in 4WD, price and creature comforts.

As for DCC, I don’t have it. I don’t even have the LP. I just have a ‘15 GTI SE with Performance Package, that’s it and after a year i’m still in deep deep love with her. About 50/50 of DCC owners say it’s a noticable feature, some say they feel like theirs is broken and doesn’t do anything.. PP is the package you want to get if you have a GTI and aren’t getting an R.

Crash McGee > Kanaric 07/17/2016 at 18:47

0

Just a small piece to add. In the 2 years the MK7 Golf R has been out, if you browse the various forums world wide, you will see very few issues. It has been a solid car for track and every day use. You won’t find problems with suspension failure or more than a handful minor squeeky interiors. I know, it is the typical VW argument about “but it has a better interior!!”. I hated VWs and believed they were (they really were) a sub par performance car until checking out the new R. You can’t go wrong with this generation if you’re asking for more than an autocross toy.

As an example of the drivetrain’s durability. If you want to go crazy, a gentleman named Dave in the UK finally got an engine to let go at 600HP. The transmission and driveline are still solid after a decent amount of 10 second quarter mile runs.

If you can’t tell, I love this completely under the radar Golf. I get to say “I just drive a Golf” and not get snide looks when people see it because it looks almost identical to the base model. You couldn’t get any attention in this if you tried, and to me, that is a valuable selling point.

Crash McGee > Animoski 07/17/2016 at 18:55

0

The ones that feel like the DCC doesn’t do anything are the ones that had the dealership miss the suspension pucks during PDI. If that happens, and it is fairly common due to them being inside of the strut cover instead of between the springs, the car will feel rock solid and have very little suspension give. There is a huge difference between race and comfort. It goes from crazy cadillacesque pillow comfort to a solid/stiff suspension that results in excellent body control.

Worth every penny if you’re not planning on putting coilovers on.

He is right about the GTI being a great purchase if you don’t want the all wheel drive confidence. The Performance Pack’s limited slip and R brakes make the GTI a great GS car that should be a class leader in the right hands.

Crash McGee > Crash McGee 07/17/2016 at 19:03

0

Utah also had a very brutal winter this year and I couldn’t get the car stuck in deep snow or ice even when I tried. Granted, you live in the LV area, so this won’t hold much weight with your needs.

Animoski > Crash McGee 07/17/2016 at 21:21

0

Yeah this is indeed a problem. Dealers do miss the suspension pucks during PDI, it’s not a crazy common problem but it’s one that has reports from all over.

I’ve never heard from anyone that the “comfort” mode on DCC is cadillacesque. I’ve heard comfort is a few notches under non-DCC standard suspension on GTI, and sport mode is a few notches stiffer. But i’ve never done a comparison myself to form an honest opinion.

HOWEVER JUST LIKE THE PERFORMANCE PACKAGE, it’s one helluva deal for what you’re paying at the dealer for the setup.

For $1k with PP, you’re getting a VAQ LSD and the R “BBK” - seperately would be worth double if you went aftermarket and labor, if not more. Same goes with the DCC, pretty much an OEM alternative to a very decent, expensive coilover kit - one that works very well with the rest of the car and electronics, for a great deal.

And to a greater extent, the R’s AWD system. For the money, you can’t beat it. It can easily cost $15k-$25k to source a suitable 4Motion, and do a whole bunch of crap to fit into a GTI. I wouldn’t be surprised if it cost a whole another GTI to get a 4Motion fit.

That’s the beauty of VW Golfs. For a very wide range of budgets, from the basic 1.8 Golf to the Golf R, to great simple package options, to the amazingly huge aftermarket market, you’ll get a great, functional ass vehicle that with a few mods no matter which model you’ll chose, will be a beast to be reckoned with.

Budgeting enough money for which one you want and with which options is step 1. Buying it is step 2. Personalizing it is step 3.

Honestly if you want, I would love to help you out personally. And so are thousands of people on various facebook groups. Just look up “VW MK7 Golf - GTI - R - MQB” - over 6.5k people

I’m very invested in pretty much everything about my car. I guarantee at some point you’re going to be questioning “DSG” vs “Manual” - even if you’re a manual driver. At some point, a tune or piggyback, and then which tune. Hell, which oil and gasoline.

I just got a catless downpipe myself.. And I need to take a trip to the dealer and get my suspension/alignment fixed up after a nasty NYC pothole.

Either way, welcome to the VDub family!

Kanaric > Animoski 07/18/2016 at 20:16

0

With tunes on these cars can you reset it to stock easily?

Animoski > Kanaric 07/18/2016 at 21:49

0

It depends which route you go. There are multiple big name tuners that support the Mk7 platform.

APR leads the pack in terms of advertised gains and poweroutput - and anytime you want to switch octane files, stages, or flash back to stock - you need to go to a licensed shop that’ll probably charge you a “labor fee” to do so. $50 at my local shop for APR re-flashes. Over $100 with tax to go back to stock, hit the dealer and then the shop again to go back to stage 1.

Unitronic and Eurodyne both offer a cable with a “flash at home” feature. You pay extra for the cable of course. But you can flash between files as many times as you please from comfort of your home.

If you’re wondering due to warranty issues, it is ultimately up to VW themselves if your engine blows up. You can be stock for 300 miles, and if your turbo blows up and takes your engine - you can bet your bank they’re going to deep dive and most likely - not always find something to deny you warranty. If something goes and takes the engine, that is a known issue VW knows about, you can likely get it warrantied - provided your dealer is nice and tries. Communication and friendlyness is key there.

Kanaric > Animoski 07/18/2016 at 22:58

0

It’s not warranty i’m worried about it’s like for autocross class. It would be cool to have a stage 1 tune then go to autocross and revert to stock for class legality.

With that in mind the cable tunes sound the most likely candidates if I do it.

Animoski > Kanaric 07/19/2016 at 00:22

0

There’s many options. For $300-$400 you can go JB1, a piggy-back that is backed by a company and mainly a dude who has amazing support for the community with long history in German cars. Somewhat customizable, works well with workarounds and is completely undetectable once removed - doesn’t really provide gains like true tunes do. Not sure how JB1 is considered in Auto-X.

If swapping files left and right before certain events - you’re definitely going to want to get a decent computer and have a decent internet connection sorted ahead of time.

Eurodyne and their “flash at home” option pretty much requires a Windows computer with an internet connection for flashing files. If you’re without access to the internet and you absolutely need to flash - you may be SOL. I’m not sure how Unitronic works.. but i’d bet it’s similar. Bad connections have sort’ve made things tedious and people are left with a bricked car until they can go back to stock and then flash their file right on the spot.

APR, Unitronic, United Motorsports, JB1/JB4, and many other big name companies that have history with German vehicles that don’t even have their products or tunes out for the Mk7 platform are currently in the works. It’s an exciting time and if you haven’t modded your vehicle yet at all, it may be worth a wait. Currently TTE is touting a suped up Golf R (IS38) turbo that is tuned by United Motorsports and is the only main competitor to come out and go against APR’s Stage3+ kit. We’re already looking at 500hp out of these 2.0 turbos.

That being said, once you go tuned I HIGHLY doubt you’re going to ever want to willingly go stock.